George Will might be getting tired of fighting after 80 years of his life, and nearly 6,000 columns in the newspaper. The truth is that “arguing about our country’s nature is American like frozen apple pie and a piece of processed cheese.” Washington Post columnist says. “So let’s argue.”
Arguments are built on facts, which Will is proud of. Will often goes to the depths of history in order to prove a point. However, problems can arise when at least one party gets the facts wrong. The New York Timess’ 1619 Project has not been supported by any evidence, nor is it consistent with Donald Trump’s assertions about the 2020 election.
Will’s latest book is American Happiness and Discontents: The Unruly Torrent, 2008–2020 The collection includes columns covering everything, from the Great Recession to what he refers to as the “crybaby presidency” of Donald Trump. He draws complicated lessons from World War II when America triumphed over authoritarianism, genocide overseas and practiced racism apartheid in the USA.
Will is proud to be an American patriot, yet it is not jingoistic. There is an historical parallel that Will believes can be used to explain almost anything happening right now, including election conspiratorial theories and President Joe Bidens attempts to drastically expand the role government plays in American life.
Will spoke in September with ReasonNick Gillespie, a Zoom contributor, talks about happiness, totalitarianism and conspiracy theories. He also discusses the value of history learning.
Reason: This is the idea of an “unruly river”. How does that describe the collection of fascinating columns?
Will: It’s unruly because it flows like a torrent. This is because reality can’t be governed. This is a great thing. The essence of the Bible can be reduced to one sentence: “God created man, woman and then promptly lost control over events.”
Those of us with a libertarian streak—some streaks broader than others, but mine is broad enough—believe that things being out of control is exactly what we want. A spontaneous order is what we want: creativity rising from the bottom, not command structures falling from the top. Events can also be chaotic, unpredictable and potentially dangerous. In the final period of my book, I believe we are seeing this dangerous side.
Is there something about American DNA that prevents us from being happy? That’s the great scene at Key LargoRocco is the villain in the Humphrey Bogart film. He’s basically asked: “What do your desires?” He replies, “I desire more.” “I want more.” I want more.” It’s almost as though we are never content with our endless appetites.
Yeah. This is what one called joyless pursuits of joy. Your pop culture quote will be matched with my. A radio station called “Radio Show” used to air long ago. Fibber McGee and Molly. Molly, her husband Fibber would tell Molly, “If you are happy to be unhappiness, then so should it.”
A certain type of American is not content unless they are angry these days. Indignant, set on, and aggrieved. This is worse than normal.
This is also completely bipartisan. Not bipartisan. But it’s across all political and ideologic boundaries.
Absolutely. Donald Trump was able to perfect this and became an avatar for crybaby conservatism. “Everyone picks on me: Hollywood, academia and the media.”
It is a shame that he has become a billionaire. Right?
Exactly. And the left today feels set upon by big corporations and money—other than George Soros’ money and politics and all that stuff. This is our national anthem.
Your columns have as a theme that while politics is obviously important it can’t be all of what is being done or the way we solve most of our problems. This is just not enough.
Yes. That is the essence of totalizing politics. All politics is personal if it is. That’s what totalitarianism is all about.
People make the common mistake of saying that totalitarian societies are not permitted to allow their citizens to take part in politics. No, no. In a totalitarian society, you can’t Not participate in politics.
When I was first allowed to enter East Berlin and saw a totalitarian society for the first time, I recall being struck by (a) the lack of advertising which I didn’t notice immediately; (b) the large red banner that said “Victory for” Sozialismus.” We were forced into politics everywhere we went, that is the problem. That’s why we are so passionate about teaching American history.
George Orwell wrote in 1984It is said that whoever controls the past will control the future. The past is controlled by the person who controls the present. Thus The New York Times‘ 1619 farce, saying that if we can just reframe American history, we can control the future by saying, stipulating—I won’t say they argue it, even, but by stipulating—that America was conceived not in liberty, as Lincoln said at Gettysburg, but in slavery and sin in 1619.
It is, however, a positive thing to debate what America stands up for and what it means. It is time to update, reinterrogate and reach a new consensus. What is the problem with 1619 Project? Is it that there’s no good-faith argument as to what America stands up for? Oder is it just that its specifics are completely incorrect? Oder a combination of the two?
The argument about the natural country’s character is just as American as frozen apples pie with some processed cheese. It is what it is. It’s just that. Let’s talk.
The 1619 Project’s preposterousness is what is wrong. This story essentially states that Americans supported the American Revolution after Lord Dunmore stated that British-soldiers would be expelled. Well, he said that in November 1775—after Lexington and Concord, after the Boston Tea Party, after the Boston Massacre, after the Stamp Act. After George Washington was appointed to command the troops, war was over.
This is why it’s factually incomprehensible to state such a thing. It’s not an argument of good faith, so to use your terms, This argument is propagandistic, tendentious and meretricious.
Morris Fiorina is a political scientist who describes the 20 years that have passed and the possible future as an age of no decisions, much like the early 19th or 20th centuries. This is a libertarian dogmatic view. It means that neither side can put its agenda into practice.
This also means it appears that the pendulum swings more extreme with every election. With each switch, the switches are flipped, the trend continues. It’s not settling down in the middle. Instead, it keeps expanding. The wrecking ball is not a pendulum, but it is a wreckingball.
Do you think the inability of us as a nation to find a political consensus—which we did, more or less, for the Cold War period, and even briefly in the 1990s, when the era of big government was over—is it destructive to not be able to fashion a governing consensus?
Because it makes the American people believe that elections are irrelevant. What happens is that executive government results. With narrow majority support from both parties, Congress can pass legislation back-and-forth. The president is the one who really makes a difference, and what infuses action with energy, are executive orders.
Joe Biden’s first few weeks as a president were filled with a frenzy and an abundance of executive orders. This isn’t healthy. My concern is that America’s modern presidency has essentially become unattached to constitutional constraints. Some people claim that presidents are able to take over the power and authority of Congress. It would be nice if they had to usurp their powers! Congress grants them power on the silver salver. They are so desperate to be rid of them. They aren’t able to pass the laws. They…say, “We really ought to have good education. Please fill out the information, you people, in the Education Department.
This is what you will get. The Centers for Disease Control are available to help with this urgent task. [and Prevention]According to the statement, “Well then, in order to control diseases, we are going to seize landlords property and make them house tenant free while they pay their mortgage interest, taxes, etc.”
To be more precise, the president states that “Therefore, Occupational Safety and Health Administration has been directed to order vaccinations for 80 million employees in private sectors.” This has two flaws. Either Congress intended that, in which case the Supreme Court should step in and say that violates the nondelegation doctrine—that is, you have delegated to the executive branch, essentially, legislative powers. In other words, Congress could not have intended that. If so the statute has been misapplied.
The judicial branch is all that is standing between us and worse government. This is something I always come back to, which is why a lot of my book deals with this topic. President Trump will not be limited. Congress cannot limit itself. Only the judiciary has the authority to police areas of limited government.
Because many essays in the collection focus on Holocaust stories, there are many that tell the story that is both important and haunting. As we look back at this historical event, what is the most important message?
Primo Levi, an Italian Holocaust survivor, stated, “It happened once, it can happen again.” This didn’t happen only once. This happened in Rwanda, and other places. It was also witnessed in the Balkans.
However, the Holocaust occurred in Germany. Germany is Europe’s most educated, well-cultivated nation. It happened quickly. The book, which I just finished reading was called Hitler’s First Hundred DaysThey should really be read. Hitler’s 100-day first year saw a dramatic and rapid change in public opinion. On the 30th January 1933, just weeks after Hitler became chancellor, mobs began to walk the streets and beat up Jews. People were passing them. This was the new normal. Amazing how quickly a new norm can be insinuated into your life. This is one of the many lessons learned from the Holocaust.
Are there any analogs to contemporary America? Are there any mobs we are passing that should we be paying attention to?
The fact that Donald Trump successfully indoctrinated scores of million of Americans into believing that voter fraud stole the 2020 elections is frightening evidence of just how simple it can be to alter the minds of large sections of Americans is alarming. He has no proof for his claims. He isn’t going to bother to give evidence or point at evidence or indicate where it is.
This is a bit like those crazy people obsessed with Kennedy’s assassination. They argued that evidence of the massive conspiracy is not available.
From time to time, the Kennedy assassination is brought up. You mentioned briefly in another column that conspiracy theorists all have to be gotten. [the shooter]Lee Harvey Oswald has been taken off the stage by their conspiracy theories. This is not just for conspiracy lovers, but also for mainstream media. A column is available where you can discuss the responses to Kennedy’s murder. The New York Times and from the establishment media was, “No, it wasn’t Lee Harvey Oswald who killed JFK. The climate was one of hatred, right-wingers, etc.
He was killed at 12 noon. He was buried in the early morning. New York Times—which means this story had to be written eight hours after he died—Scotty Reston, the revered bureau chief of The New York TimesIn a headline story, he claimed that he had been killed in Dallas by the climate of hatred. They had said that Goldwater was responsible for his death, essentially.
Yeah. No. Climates that are dominated by hate do not kill. People are killed by the Soviet Union’s ex-Marines who defected from the Marine Corps and earned a couple marksman badges.
Oder, Jackie Kennedy put it, “A little communist.”
There are a few columns on the Japanese internment camps. You are referring to people who were interned or their families interned and then went on fighting, usually in Europe. This is because Japanese-American citizens who were here longer than mine were were allowed to fight in Pacific.
Is there a lesson we can draw from the experiences of people who were illegally and deliberately cut off from American society and placed in internment camp? How do they fight for America? Is this a story about America? What does this say about the American story?
It is not true, my opinion. The 1944 Korematsu decision, the Supreme Court, to its—I was going to say everlasting, but that’s not true, because it corrected itself—to its shame, ratified the internment of these people, two-thirds of whom were American citizens, half of whom were women and children.
In 1983 however, it seems that was the case, and in response to this decision, the Supreme Court declared, “We discredit that decision.” Congress voted to pay the reparations, refuting the notion that Americans don’t want to see the unpleasant parts of the past. This episode is a reminder of the dangers that executive power can pose again. The ability of presidents wielding wartime power to pick up these powers is—to use the attorney general, then later justice, Robert Jackson’s phrase—like a loaded gun sitting there on the table to be picked up.
If Gen. [John]DeWitt is the real villain. He was the West Coast defense chief. People said that they had to act against these possibly disloyal Japanese Americans. DeWitt says it’s “very suspicious” because there is no evidence. This shows how dark and sinister their deepest secret is.
This makes QAnon appear like a legitimate investigative conspiracy because it is producing fake evidence.
It is your will to believe. People will believe what they believe if they believe in them. This is an issue that plagues all societies, but it seems to be more prevalent in mass societies, which have mass communication systems capable of catering for these illusions.
In a 2016 interview, you said this: Reason that if Trump succeeds, makes it into office, the Republican Party will be reduced to a husk. Are you ready to take that step? The 2020 Presidential Election saw the Republican Party take a beating. The Republican Party lost control over Congress in the process (which the party seems to be poised for retaking, at most, the House of Representatives in 2022). Is the Republican Party now a mere shell? What damage do you believe Donald Trump is causing to the Grand Old Party’s reputation? Is it really that bad?
It’s bad. It is more than a husk. This is not, as the name implies, a political party. It is a cult. It’s a cult because many Republican officeholders, especially at the national level, are afraid of their voters. This means that they dislike their voters. They don’t care about their voters. One tweet from Mar-a-Lago might be enough to get 25 percent, 30%, and 40 percent depending on who they represent. They walk on eggshells all the time. Because they do not feel dignity in their current position, or the work that they are doing right now, they’re extremely unhappy.
What is Trump’s agenda again? Might Trump run again in 2024? Yes, no, maybe. But, what does he really want? What’s he trying to do? This is the same path that we’ve taken. The one thing that makes Donald Trump look like a one trick pony is his entertainer act. It’s not clear what he will say for an encore.
How about the Democratic Party? Joe Biden won, and won decisively. They won control of both the Senate and the House, evidently due to Trump’s extended hissy fit between November and January. But they’re also quite temperamental at the moment. Bernie Sanders leads an insurgent group in the Senate, and there are other House members who are more progressive. They are also riven both by populism, and by a lack of coherence.
Although they’re fragile, history can be made from the smallest, most compact of -minorities.
Are you calling Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez (D–N.Y.) Is this a small minority?
She and her team, her cohort have the energy to support the Democratic Party. Many people say, “Gee, whiz! I didn’t know Biden was so far left.” He isn’t left. He is not progressive. He is a Democrat. His party follows him, so he isn’t being pulled. Just, to be fair—if I will cite the man for whom I cast my first presidential vote—just as Barry Goldwater and his intense compact minority in the Republican Party pulled the party permanently to the right.
The difference is obvious. The year 1933 was the beginning of this story. [President]Franklin Roosevelt set about changing the nature of government and the citizens. With lopsided legislative majorities both in the House, and the Senate, he succeeded. Lyndon Johnson won a stunning victory against Goldwater and went on to implement the New Deal with Medicare, Medicaid, and other reforms.
Biden does something very different. Biden is violating Jefferson’s maxim, “Do no undertake great departures upon slender majority.” This was not a vote of the country. It doesn’t want this. The country finds Modern Monetary Theory implausible—which is [the idea]You can borrow as long as your interest rate is less than that of growth. This is why economists believe interest rates will stay low for the near future. A Hayekian epistemic error is committed.
It is important to remember that, in May 2008 the foreseeable past didn’t reach September 2008 when Lehman Brothers was formed and the rest of the unpleasantness occurred.
Sarah Walton (your assistant) is the final column. Sarah Walton’s husband, who graduated from an academy of service in 1989, was killed in Afghanistan 2008. Talk about their sacrifices.
You have been harshly critical of American foreign policy in particular the wars against Iraq and Afghanistan. How do we grow up as a country so that we can honor people and their sacrifice—immense sacrifice—without incurring more of those sacrifices?
You must first say they are valorous. Valor is something you should value. There has been far too little wasted valor.
My opinion is that 2003’s invasion of Iraq was America’s worst foreign policy error. It hasn’t cost us anything in the way of future difficulties. Your valor should be used for those causes which are worthy. And nation building—again, epistemic humility from Mr. Hayek—know what you know, and know what you can’t know. Nation building is something you don’t know, as it sounds absurdly like orchid building. Nation building is like an orchid. They’re organic.
If we send to Afghanistan, a general (I won’t name him), but one who states, “We are going to bring in government in a container for Afghanistan,” then we all know you will squander your valor.
Your age is 80. Your children range from Gen X members to millennials. What can you do to reach the younger generation? America reveres its youth. The young have always scared America. How can you get younger people to see the history and its meaning?
It should be interesting. Also, write well. Reading a column is the most optional thing in the world. It should be enjoyable. If it is just rhetoric, it won’t make it enjoyable. A fact-checker from the Washington Post was my most memorable compliment. Writers Group, who syndicates this column, said she did not know the number of facts in it until she became fact-checker. That’s exactly what I want. Although it refers to the opinion page in this case, I need my column filled with 95 percent of information.
The interview was edited and condensed for clarity and style. For a podcast version, subscribe to Nick Gillespie Interview: The Reason.